Author Topic: 69 Staggered Shocks  (Read 1124 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline LightWtJet

  • Shadetree Mechanic
  • ***
  • Joined: May 2004
  • Location: Ann Arbor, Mi.
  • Posts: 371
Re: 69 Staggered Shocks
« Reply #15 on: March 12, 2018, 05:45:50 pm »
My 1968 car is a 135 car built as a manual but before the staggered shocks were available. Wheel hop was not easy to fix- without hurting ride quality. We also had a test for sand hop.
8 Fastback Under Restoration

Offline geraldt52

  • Fanatic!
  • *****
  • Joined: Nov 2003
  • Location: northern california
  • Posts: 2,340
Re: 69 Staggered Shocks
« Reply #16 on: March 12, 2018, 07:36:54 pm »
... Wheel hop was not easy to fix- without hurting ride quality. We also had a test for sand hop.

What the heck is "sand hop"?

I considered converting my 68-1/2 to staggered shocks back in the day.  After further consideration, I decided that it was a much bigger job than it was worth, especially given that they were effective, but not all that effective...ie: they'll still hop.  I remember the first I saw staggered shocks on a 67 Firebird and was amazed that something as simple as staggering the shocks would be effective at all...and honestly, to this day I'm not clear on why that works if the compression and rebound on the shocks are about equal.  It is also a mystery to me why Ford would have put staggered shocks on all sticks, but not an automatic with 4.30 gears...did they think it wouldn't hop?

When I raced my 68-1/2 I'd put a block underneath the rubber pinion snubber, so that it actually touched the tunnel, and that stopped the wheel hop, but you wouldn't want to drive around on the street like that.  Chryslers seemed to control it pretty effectively by having an extra 1/2 leaf in the front part of the spring.  I could never understand why Ford didn't incorporate the '67 Shelby design, that used a bracket/rubber bumper above the front portion of each leaf spring to stop the wrap up without affecting normal spring movement.

The worst wheel hop I ever saw was the L79 Novas...they were just insane without a traction bar.

Offline LightWtJet

  • Shadetree Mechanic
  • ***
  • Joined: May 2004
  • Location: Ann Arbor, Mi.
  • Posts: 371
Re: 69 Staggered Shocks
« Reply #17 on: March 12, 2018, 08:46:39 pm »
Gerald's questions-

What the heck is "sand hop"?
Ford found that cars that wheel hopped on pavement also did that on snow-so to test year round we had a sand pit.
I remember the first I saw staggered shocks on a 67 Firebird--so it looks like Ford did not invent the concept.
It is also a mystery to me why Ford would have put staggered shocks on all sticks, but not an automatic with 4.30 gears...did they think it wouldn't hop?
Yes they hopped but not as bad. Cost was no doubt a factor.
Chryslers seemed to control it pretty effectively by having an extra 1/2 leaf in the front part of the spring.  I could never understand why Ford didn't incorporate the '67 Shelby design, that used a bracket/rubber bumper above the front portion of each leaf spring to stop the wrap up without affecting normal spring movement.
Those changes may have hurt ride quality--The ride and handling engineers had the final say in any change that hurt their work. We thought of them as prima donnas at times. 
8 Fastback Under Restoration

Offline milo

  • Newcomer
  • *
  • Joined: Apr 2017
  • Location: Los Angeles, CA
  • Posts: 4
Re: 69 Staggered Shocks
« Reply #18 on: March 12, 2018, 11:16:18 pm »
Thank you all for the information - very very helpful!

It drove myself nuts today looking at all the metal of the car and I havent found any evidence of a rebody, nor of the staggered shocks ever having been installed. Im stumped.

I have the Marti - which states it was built with a CJ/4-speed - both shock towers have the VIN, the windshield plate is present, as is the door tag (neither of which are repops).

Stumped.

I'm damn sure Id be able to recognize the metal work required to either swap a front clip or remove the piece used to mount the staggered shock setup...

Nevertheless, thanks for all the input and photos... Glad to have the community.

Offline 69cobrajetrugae2

  • Fanatic!
  • *****
  • Joined: Jan 2014
  • Location: los angeles
  • Posts: 1,515
Re: 69 Staggered Shocks
« Reply #19 on: March 12, 2018, 11:33:37 pm »
Wheel hop and clutch chatter are caused by the same mechanical condition which is that the driveline is "winding up" or twisting then releasing.

Imagine viewing the rear end and tires of a car in slow motion at launch time as the torque is applied to the driveline. Rear tires 1 and 2 are stationary.

The driveline winds up and tire 1 is about to slip, even with posi-traction tires 1 and 2 will not slip at exactly the same time.

Tire 1 grabs the pavement until the tire slips or otherwise breaks loose.

The instant tire 1 slips the windup is released and the "spring" type of action returns to each driveline mounting point terminating at the motor mounts.  The motor mounts and transmission mounts and rear end mounts hold the windup which is then delivered to tire 2.  Tire 2 grabs the pavement then slips.

With each windup and slip of tires 1 and 2 the unused windup energy is added to the constant torque supplied by the engine.

Tires 1 and 2 are using the majority of the windup energy in propelling the car forward, the rest of it swarms the rear end leaf springs because the motor and transmission mounts are limited in their movement to consume "work wise" the windup energy. 

One second into the launch and the windup is intensifying as tires 1 and 2 grabs then slips on the pavement "left/right/left/right" lifting and dropping the rear of the car in a "hopping movement".

The "wheel hop" ends when the car's road speed increases to the point where the tire slip has diminished.

If the engine and transmission and rear end are solid mounted a windup or "wheel hop and clutch chatter" cannot occur since the twisting and windup motion is rejected and is sent back to the tires.

Staggered shocks and their effect on reducing "Wheel hop" must be marginal at best.  As the aforementioned windup begins, the staggered shocks in our cars might help to break up or "confuse" for lack of a better word the windup and release.

« Last Edit: March 13, 2018, 11:35:07 am by 69cobrajetrugae2 »

Offline sportyworty

  • Registry Supporter
  • Fanatic!
  • **
  • Joined: Feb 2005
  • Posts: 3,814
Re: 69 Staggered Shocks
« Reply #20 on: March 13, 2018, 10:04:27 am »
Over the past decade and half there have seen several discussions on cars like these on all the forums combined. The same discussions regarding wrap around shock tower reinforcements goes along with the staggered shock reinforcement. There have been various examples of every combination of anomaly discussed. A few are cars with no wrap around that should have, cars with a single side only, small block cars with ether shock reinforcement or the rear stagger plate. There have been 6 cylinder cars reported with wrap around tower reinforcements even. The body was bucked with the reinforcements based on a serial number assigned. Very good chance orders were changed on occasion and cars were reassigned rotation numbers. These are rare instances though based on actual production figures and frequency of sightings. I think we just forget and address each of these discussions as if they are new based on who is asking and responding on any given day. I passed on a early May 69 Boss 302 in the mid 1990's because it had no wrap around towers. I would not hesitate today on the same car. Also the rear stagger reinforcement is different between models and we have the Talladega as an automatic with the rear staggered shocks OEM. Cougars had the tower reinforcements on all models by 1970. Lots of interesting happenings at FoMoCo in the late 60's
8F91R577646 Black/Red 4 Speed

Offline chris

  • Old Hand
  • ****
  • Joined: Oct 2007
  • Posts: 567
Re: 69 Staggered Shocks
« Reply #21 on: March 13, 2018, 12:52:38 pm »
Strangely enough my 70' Mach (C6 Auto car) came through with the upper Staggered Shock Mount in place but Regular lower Mount installed. inside where the upper regular Shock Mounts go had evidence & cutouts laying where they corrected the mistake & provided the Standard Shock set up. Car has been in the Family since 73' so I know it to be a Factory oversight & Correction. I've bought a lower Shock Plate Mount and installed the Staggered set up years ago since the upper mount was there !!     
BigBlock,All Throttle No Bottle
70' Mach 1 428Cj  12.7 109MPH
07' GT-500 5.4L
95' Bronco 5.8L   (Bad Weather Beater)

Offline geraldt52

  • Fanatic!
  • *****
  • Joined: Nov 2003
  • Location: northern california
  • Posts: 2,340
Re: 69 Staggered Shocks
« Reply #22 on: March 13, 2018, 03:47:30 pm »
...Ford found that cars that wheel hopped on pavement also did that on snow-so to test year round we had a sand pit...

Too funny...so "sand hop" was "insider lingo" it would seem.  I worked for a force transducer company once that had developed an extremely proprietary method of finely "adjusting" the output characteristics of strain gages after they had been installed.  It was mandated inside the plant that the procedure be referred to as "pixie dusting", so as not to give any hint as to what was actually being done...the owner being neurotic about someone stealing it.  It was funny how everyone used the term without questioning it, dutifully sending certain parts to engineering for pixie dusting, 95% of them having absolutely no idea what it meant, or caring.  Inside lingo.

These are the parts for a '67 Shelby that I was referring to:
http://www.cobranda.com/19shrespanup.html
I don't think they'd affect ride quality in any way, expect maybe a premature partial "bottoming out" in a severe bump...but they do stop/limit the characteristic wrap up of the front part of the leaf spring that causes wheel hop.  I'm too lazy/stupid to attach an image, but if you Google "67 Shelby axle snubber" and select "images" there's at least one good shot of how they install.

Offline jackmi

  • Occasional Poster
  • **
  • Joined: Nov 2003
  • Location: Tomahawk, Wisconsin
  • Posts: 202
Re: 69 Staggered Shocks
« Reply #23 on: March 13, 2018, 04:56:06 pm »
My 68 1/2 that I'm working on right now has the staggered shock galvanized mounts, but it appears that the regular shock mount locations were used.  There is no evidence that the added mount was ever used.  When I got the car, the 9" was gone and an 8" in place with regular shocks, obviously done by previous owners.  I can only speculate that maybe the normal lower shock plates were put on the car by mistake on the line so the workers decided to just use the regular upper mounts- but who knows...

Offline Armond

  • Fanatic!
  • *****
  • Joined: Nov 2003
  • Location: Utah
  • Posts: 1,948
    • My home page
Re: 69 Staggered Shocks
« Reply #24 on: March 14, 2018, 02:32:11 am »
The Cal special R code I restored some years ago is an Automatic and had the staggered shock set up in it and never used, original owner car.  To have a car showing up with out it is unusual but could happen.  One thing you can look at is your rear frame rails.  Every 4 speed 1969 mustang built if it was a Z,R,Q,G,S codes and also all Shelby's M codes and Shelby Automatics, should have the convertible re enforcement plate spot welded to the inside side of the rear frame rails.   If your car has these then you can be pretty sure your car is a 4 speed car.  I have studied this for over 30 years.  It is a good way to check for a re body car.  No 70's that I have looked at have had this plate.  Here is a picture from one of my cars showing the spot welds that can be easily seen.  Good luck!  Also as a note, one of my freind's has a 69 Mach S code car and it has them and of course no Staggered shock set up.
9F01R141359 Winter blue GT 4 speed!!!!
9K45Q103601 a very cool Cobra Auto       
http://www.dagostinirestorations.com/

Offline djevon75

  • Newcomer
  • *
  • Joined: Mar 2008
  • Location: hutchinson kansas
  • Posts: 20
Re: 69 Staggered Shocks
« Reply #25 on: March 14, 2018, 03:13:13 pm »
i have had 2 san jose cars 1 is a q code 4sp and other is a s code 4speed... both cars were built 18 days apart and both did not have staggered shocks... found a r code 4sp car built between the 2 cars and it did have the mount.... i guess they ran out and couldnt stop the line... jan 3 on q code and jan 21 on s code
69 Q code mach pro street 9R02Q130708
69 G code boss 9F02G194090
69 m code gt sportsroof
76 cobra 2 v8 4 speed
1984.5 gt350
07 gt500
71 maverick grabber 351w
95 mustang 460ci
84 gt conv
89 gt drag car 9.97@131-1/4
620-474-2485
Dustin Harriman

Offline Armond

  • Fanatic!
  • *****
  • Joined: Nov 2003
  • Location: Utah
  • Posts: 1,948
    • My home page
Re: 69 Staggered Shocks
« Reply #26 on: March 14, 2018, 04:28:59 pm »
Just in case I was miss understood,  I posted that the couple of 4 speed S codes I have seen, had the re enforcement plates in the frame rail. I was not saying they had the staggered shock mount.  But as usual Ford was consistently inconsistent and mistakes made.
9F01R141359 Winter blue GT 4 speed!!!!
9K45Q103601 a very cool Cobra Auto       
http://www.dagostinirestorations.com/

Offline sportyworty

  • Registry Supporter
  • Fanatic!
  • **
  • Joined: Feb 2005
  • Posts: 3,814
Re: 69 Staggered Shocks
« Reply #27 on: March 14, 2018, 05:49:00 pm »
i have had 2 san jose cars 1 is a q code 4sp and other is a s code 4speed... both cars were built 18 days apart and both did not have staggered shocks... found a r code 4sp car built between the 2 cars and it did have the mount.... i guess they ran out and couldnt stop the line... jan 3 on q code and jan 21 on s code

Sounds like they were built as intended. San Jose is non specific and S code cars are not supposed to be staggered shocks.
8F91R577646 Black/Red 4 Speed

Offline geraldt52

  • Fanatic!
  • *****
  • Joined: Nov 2003
  • Location: northern california
  • Posts: 2,340
Re: 69 Staggered Shocks
« Reply #28 on: March 14, 2018, 09:29:50 pm »
i have had 2 san jose cars 1 is a q code 4sp and other is a s code 4speed... both cars were built 18 days apart and both did not have staggered shocks... found a r code 4sp car built between the 2 cars and it did have the mount.... i guess they ran out and couldnt stop the line... jan 3 on q code and jan 21 on s code

Sounds like they were built as intended. San Jose is non specific and S code cars are not supposed to be staggered shocks.

I think djevon75 is talking about 3 cars...a Q code 4sp without staggered, a S code 4sp without staggered, and a R code 4sp with staggered (that happened to be built in between the other two cars).  The S code and the R code are as expected, but obviously the Q Code is not.

From just our very limited data in this thread, it's obvious that there's probably some legit variations to the rules out there.  I suspect that some were mistakes, and some were intentional decisions by engineers, approving exceptions deemed not to be critical, to keep the line moving.  It'd have been annoying to not get staggered shocks if you were really expecting them, but I'd guess 98 out of 100 buyers didn't know or care.

Offline J_Speegle

  • Past Registry Supporter
  • Fanatic!
  • *
  • Joined: Jan 2006
  • Location: Calif
  • Username: Jeff_Speegle
  • Posts: 2,474
    • http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/6473/page2.html
Re: 69 Staggered Shocks
« Reply #29 on: March 14, 2018, 09:32:03 pm »
i have had 2 san jose cars 1 is a q code 4sp and other is a s code 4speed... both cars were built 18 days apart and both did not have staggered shocks... found a r code 4sp car built between the 2 cars and it did have the mount.... i guess they ran out and couldnt stop the line... jan 3 on q code and jan 21 on s code

Doubt they ran out and started the build of the car. There were a number of employees who's job was nothing other than to assure that cars were not started without making sure that all parts needed were available and on site.  Just for comparison have cars San Jose CJs built around your Q codes vin and dates (the Jan 3rd date)  with staggers in place  with all original sheet metal in my picture files and some I've owned

Not to say this happened with your car but seen allot of repaired cars were staggered were not reinstalled or the cars received a rear clip from a donor without the feature.