Author Topic: Got my car out today  (Read 5083 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline rockhouse66

  • Registry Supporter
  • Fanatic!
  • **
  • Joined: Aug 2005
  • Location: Western NC
  • Posts: 4,262
Re: Got my car out today
« Reply #30 on: October 17, 2012, 08:05:18 pm »
We pulled the intake and checked the lifter it was toast.pulled the cam #1 intake lobe is a mess.

Well, that would explain it wouldn't it?  Don't you love mechanical stuff?  There is always a reason.  Best of luck getting this back together and running those great times.  Wish I had a 12s CJ!
Jim

'69 Grande CJ

Offline redscj

  • Fanatic!
  • *****
  • Joined: Dec 2009
  • Location: Utah
  • Posts: 3,440
Re: Got my car out today
« Reply #31 on: October 17, 2012, 08:36:23 pm »
     Good to hear that you found the problem, hopefully. How about a little background on the cam, cast iron or steel. Hydraulic, solid or rollers? Any ideas why it failed? Sorry, I hate to sound like I'm grilling you. But I'd like to learn about the lobe failure right from a guy that does his own work. TIA.
     The only thing worse would be to not find why the performance fell off.
     P.S. I had my own cam failure many years ago. Not a good feeling.
Grant
69 Mach 1 Dearborn SCJ 4.30 4spd 6/17/69 Candy Apple Red
69 Sportsroof Metuchen SCJ 4.30 C6 5/28/69 Acapulco Blue

Offline 428 CJ hardtops

  • Fanatic!
  • *****
  • Joined: Jan 2007
  • Location: Mid West
  • Posts: 2,014
Re: Got my car out today
« Reply #32 on: October 17, 2012, 08:54:35 pm »
Its a Comp hydraulic non roller.We never had a car start so fast when breaking one in it started instantly and we prelubed the engine dropped the dist in .I dont know why it failed but sometimes they just do bad metal who knows.I had sent it off and had the cam and lifters cryogenic treated and that should have helped wear resistance
had many 428 CJ and SCJ cars over the last 30 years.I currently own a 68 1/2 coupe and a 69 R code SCJ Coupe and a 70 R code SCJ Cougar Eliminator .I am looking for a 70 428 coupe if anybody knows of one for sale.

Offline geraldt52

  • Fanatic!
  • *****
  • Joined: Nov 2003
  • Location: northern california
  • Posts: 2,585
Re: Got my car out today
« Reply #33 on: October 17, 2012, 10:03:38 pm »
...We pulled the intake and checked the lifter it was toast.pulled the cam #1 intake lobe is a mess...

That was my fear when I suggested a compression check and removing the valve covers to look for the obvious.  If it's bad enough you can see the problem on a vacuum gage as well.

With all the reported cam failures nowadays it'd sure be nice to know if it's crappy machining or metalurgy problems involved.  The OEMs have moved on to rollers and have no interest, and the specialty cam manufacturers don't seem to care about diagnosing the problem, and seem content to allow the "hobby" to operate in the dark and suffer the consequences.  Even if the manufacturer replaces the cam under warranty it hardly compensates someone for the amount of work involved.  Just one or two lobes failing sounds like machining, but who knows.  Obviously it could be figured out if someone had the interest/time/money.

Did you happen to use lower pressure valve springs for the break-in? 

Offline redscj

  • Fanatic!
  • *****
  • Joined: Dec 2009
  • Location: Utah
  • Posts: 3,440
Re: Got my car out today
« Reply #34 on: October 17, 2012, 10:47:46 pm »
     Isn't the cast iron heat treated? I think the phrase is "chilled". I believe that is kind of a shallow case hardening. I wonder if one of the chemicals used in the process has been outlawed or regulated differently in the last few years. As Gerald says. This seems to be a more common problem that it used to be. Way back in high school we case hardened some school projects in a bath that contained cyanide. It's entirely possible that some key ingredient has been changed. Just a possibility to think about. I mean, look at what has happened to zinc in oil & lead in gasoline. Times change.
Grant
69 Mach 1 Dearborn SCJ 4.30 4spd 6/17/69 Candy Apple Red
69 Sportsroof Metuchen SCJ 4.30 C6 5/28/69 Acapulco Blue

Offline 428 CJ hardtops

  • Fanatic!
  • *****
  • Joined: Jan 2007
  • Location: Mid West
  • Posts: 2,014
Re: Got my car out today
« Reply #35 on: October 17, 2012, 11:21:20 pm »
...We pulled the intake and checked the lifter it was toast.pulled the cam #1 intake lobe is a mess...

That was my fear when I suggested a compression check and removing the valve covers to look for the obvious.  If it's bad enough you can see the problem on a vacuum gage as well.

With all the reported cam failures nowadays it'd sure be nice to know if it's crappy machining or metalurgy problems involved.  The OEMs have moved on to rollers and have no interest, and the specialty cam manufacturers don't seem to care about diagnosing the problem, and seem content to allow the "hobby" to operate in the dark and suffer the consequences.  Even if the manufacturer replaces the cam under warranty it hardly compensates someone for the amount of work involved.  Just one or two lobes failing sounds like machining, but who knows.  Obviously it could be figured out if someone had the interest/time/money.

Did you happen to use lower pressure valve springs for the break-in?
    The labour wasnt to bad we were ready to check and degree the cam in so it was mostly there anyway.Did not use weaker springs ,the ones we are useing are  135 lbs closed pressure and have used the same springs on the last cam .
had many 428 CJ and SCJ cars over the last 30 years.I currently own a 68 1/2 coupe and a 69 R code SCJ Coupe and a 70 R code SCJ Cougar Eliminator .I am looking for a 70 428 coupe if anybody knows of one for sale.

Offline 428 CJ hardtops

  • Fanatic!
  • *****
  • Joined: Jan 2007
  • Location: Mid West
  • Posts: 2,014
Re: Got my car out today
« Reply #36 on: October 17, 2012, 11:32:43 pm »
     Isn't the cast iron heat treated? I think the phrase is "chilled". I believe that is kind of a shallow case hardening. I wonder if one of the chemicals used in the process has been outlawed or regulated differently in the last few years. As Gerald says. This seems to be a more common problem that it used to be. Way back in high school we case hardened some school projects in a bath that contained cyanide. It's entirely possible that some key ingredient has been changed. Just a possibility to think about. I mean, look at what has happened to zinc in oil & lead in gasoline. Times change.
 
When they cryo a part it is heated up in a oven then cooled to room temp then frozen -350 degrees and let to go to room temp.The process is repeated a few times.It realines the molecules .It cam make a brake rotor last 4 times longer than stock.I hoped that it would prevent any issues like this.
had many 428 CJ and SCJ cars over the last 30 years.I currently own a 68 1/2 coupe and a 69 R code SCJ Coupe and a 70 R code SCJ Cougar Eliminator .I am looking for a 70 428 coupe if anybody knows of one for sale.

Offline 68Rcodeman

  • Past Registry Supporter
  • Old Hand
  • *
  • Joined: Apr 2008
  • Location: Spring Hill, FL
  • Posts: 652
  • 135 Lightweight, #045 Russ Davis Ford
Re: Got my car out today
« Reply #37 on: October 18, 2012, 01:36:21 am »

When they cryo a part it is heated up in a oven then cooled to room temp then frozen -350 degrees and let to go to room temp.The process is repeated a few times.It realines the molecules .It cam make a brake rotor last 4 times longer than stock.I hoped that it would prevent any issues like this.
[/quote]

Steve, Blair Patrick is building me a stocker and the cam is a Billet flat tappet. Should take care of wiping any lobes.
                                                                                                                                   David
135 Lightweight, Russ Davis #045, 321 Actual miles,
Original Paint , Sound deadener delete.
1968 1/2 Fastback, Last one produced, San Jose plant
1968 GT500KR Fastback, Highland Green, 28,000 mile
2005 Ford GT, White w/ Blue stripe
2008 FR500CJ,#48

Offline rockhouse66

  • Registry Supporter
  • Fanatic!
  • **
  • Joined: Aug 2005
  • Location: Western NC
  • Posts: 4,262
Re: Got my car out today
« Reply #38 on: October 18, 2012, 07:17:55 am »
There is a guy who is soliciting failed cams to do failure analysis on them - free!  It might help everyone if you shipped yours off to this guy along with the history on it;

http://fepower.net/simplemachinesforum/index.php?topic=597.msg4576#msg4576
Jim

'69 Grande CJ

Offline 428 CJ hardtops

  • Fanatic!
  • *****
  • Joined: Jan 2007
  • Location: Mid West
  • Posts: 2,014
Re: Got my car out today
« Reply #39 on: October 18, 2012, 05:23:17 pm »
I called Comp Cams and they will replace the cam for free since it was only a few months old .I am paying extra to have it nitrated so in a couple weeks should be going again .
had many 428 CJ and SCJ cars over the last 30 years.I currently own a 68 1/2 coupe and a 69 R code SCJ Coupe and a 70 R code SCJ Cougar Eliminator .I am looking for a 70 428 coupe if anybody knows of one for sale.

Offline geraldt52

  • Fanatic!
  • *****
  • Joined: Nov 2003
  • Location: northern california
  • Posts: 2,585
Re: Got my car out today
« Reply #40 on: October 18, 2012, 08:03:30 pm »
...Did not use weaker springs ,the ones we are useing are  135 lbs closed pressure and have used the same springs on the last cam...

Honestly, if it were me I'd use some crappy lighter springs for maybe 500 miles and then swap them out.  I've always suspected that agressive ramp designs combined with higher spring pressures are at least in part responsible for the huge increase in cam failures.  It's not that terrible a job, and it can't hurt anything... 

Offline chris

  • Old Hand
  • ****
  • Joined: Oct 2007
  • Posts: 599
Re: Got my car out today
« Reply #41 on: October 18, 2012, 08:43:40 pm »
I had a Mech Roller Cam that was soft & I wondered why it constantly needed the lash adjusted...when it was finally pulled out it had nasty deep grooves from the roller lifters on every lobe . Switched to a Hyd. roller Cam, no issues with this one so far....

Chris M
BigBlock,All Throttle No Bottle
70' Mach 1 428Cj  12.7 109MPH
07' GT-500 5.4L
95' Bronco 5.8L   (Bad Weather Beater)

Offline 161854

  • Fanatic!
  • *****
  • Joined: Oct 2008
  • Location: Anaheim Ca
  • Posts: 2,406
Re: Got my car out today
« Reply #42 on: October 19, 2012, 01:57:08 pm »
     On solid lifter cams I use "casidium" coated ones . I get them as takeouts from Nascar teams and the coating prevents wear to the cam despite higher valve spring pressures. They can also go on any lobe and do not require any break in at all. They are VERY expensive new but reasonable in the used market. I do not anticipate any hydraulic versions out there for obvious reasons. Since all Ford lifters are the same diameter they would interchange. All I can say is it works for me.
       Randy
68 1/2 CJ FB San Jose white/blue "C" stripe Foulger Ford
 66 GT350 Hertz SFM 6S 477 white/ blue side stripes 1  of 18
3 magazine covers- Car Craft July '77,  Modified Mustangs Feb '11 , and June '14 Mustang Monthly
'78 F350 Oleynik racecar hauler

Offline geraldt52

  • Fanatic!
  • *****
  • Joined: Nov 2003
  • Location: northern california
  • Posts: 2,585
Re: Got my car out today
« Reply #43 on: October 19, 2012, 09:52:42 pm »
428 CJ hardtops, my recollection is that you were previously using a "cheater" cam from back in the 60s/70s.  Did it get wrecked when you lost a rod?  Was there another reason you decided to go with a new Comp cam?

Offline 428 CJ hardtops

  • Fanatic!
  • *****
  • Joined: Jan 2007
  • Location: Mid West
  • Posts: 2,014
Re: Got my car out today
« Reply #44 on: October 19, 2012, 11:07:24 pm »
That cam was 40 years old and I though new tech would gain some HP but the old cam has some lobes that are 15 thou smaller than other .40 years of wear are taking there toll
.Randy those lifters sound like a good option but my cam was a hydraulic if they dont have a new one made yet maybee I can get a solid with those specs.Thanks for the info.
had many 428 CJ and SCJ cars over the last 30 years.I currently own a 68 1/2 coupe and a 69 R code SCJ Coupe and a 70 R code SCJ Cougar Eliminator .I am looking for a 70 428 coupe if anybody knows of one for sale.