Author Topic: Who created the first 428 Cobra Jet?  (Read 2733 times)

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Online LightWtJet

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Who created the first 428 Cobra Jet?
« on: August 20, 2018, 09:14:57 pm »
Folk lore and many automotive magazines give credit to a Tasca 1967 Mustang coupe - the KR8 as being the first. Per the March 2010 Mustang Monthly page 29 you can see the Coupe in a picture taken in April of 1967. In the Summer of 1967, the KR8 was taken to the Ford test track to show the engineers how quick it was. By November of 1967 Hot Rod magazine polled readers to complain to Ford that they were not happy with Ford's performance cars. In a  Nov. letter from Iacocca, he asked engineering -what are we going to do and when? By January of 1968 , Ford had built the first 50 CJ cars.
I was there at Ford, but I did not know who was first. So I called Bill Barr (428CJ engine supervisor) recently. We  reminisced about our roles in various programs (mine minor) and he told me - the 428 CJ engine program was started in Jan. of 1967.
Perhaps Dave (Dggibert) and his dad who was at Tasca can settle this issue at the reunion--
« Last Edit: August 20, 2018, 09:21:50 pm by LightWtJet »
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Offline Chris Teeling

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Re: Who created the first 428 Cobra Jet?
« Reply #1 on: August 20, 2018, 10:44:34 pm »
The evidence is with Bill.

There is no way a new production engine /drivetrain option could be designed, qualified (Ford & Federal requirements) and readied for manufacturing in the few months that the legend has it being done in.


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Offline Dggilbert

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Re: Who created the first 428 Cobra Jet?
« Reply #2 on: August 22, 2018, 07:48:31 am »
As most of you know I'm fairly new to all this as I only recently became aware of the significance of some of the projects my father worked on while at Tasca. In my many conversations with my dad the only definitive statement I can get out of him is "Tasca made it happen". After countless hours on my tablet researching the CJ and its creation that it was teamwork in that Bill Barr, my dad and the Bopper forced Fords hand to get the 428CJ built for the 1968 and not 1969. All the nitty griity details I hope to discover at the reunion. My dad has never been a self promoter and doesn't open up much about the old days, these old Ford guys are tough. Is like to thank all the guys on the registry for putting up with me and without some of the back and forth we've had over the last six months its quite possible my father wouldn't be in attendance as that was his intention when I first get involved with the registry, so thank you all. As for the inspiration for the KR8 build, Bill Barr was involved, my dad was in contact with Bill quite a bit and they did talk about the 428PI as a candidate for the heads my dad had in mind, my dad says he noticed an improvement in performance from the 63 Galaxiie to the 64 and after talking with Bill they determined the difference was the heads, they wouldn't fit the 390 so they determined the 428PI would be a good candidate. Was my dad feed the build combo of the 427 LR heads on the 428PI by Bill Barr? Its the single biggest question I have for him. But like my dad says"Tasca made it happen". Even Bill calls the Bopper the father of the CJ and he'd know better than anyone what that means. Can't wait to find out, should be an amazing weekend.

Offline geraldt52

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Re: Who created the first 428 Cobra Jet?
« Reply #3 on: August 22, 2018, 12:09:13 pm »
I think that it's perfectly possible that Ford and Tasca were working/thinking along the same lines at the same time.  Perhaps it was just that Tasca, not surprisingly, was able to turn the idea into a recognizable piece of hardware before Ford was.  It pays not to underestimate a couple of competent guys under a shade tree, compared to the slow moving bureaucracy of a major corporation.

Not to diminish the work that was done, but putting 406/427 heads on other FEs to wake them up wasn't exactly an original idea back in the day.  I remember one of the annuals of Hot Rod's Complete Book of Engines laying out exactly that, and it would certainly have been pre-'67.  Not to mention that the Chevy guys had been using "fuelie" heads to wake up lesser small block Chevys for years.

Offline 161854

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Re: Who created the first 428 Cobra Jet?
« Reply #4 on: August 22, 2018, 12:38:03 pm »
The evidence is with Bill.

There is no way a new production engine /drivetrain option could be designed, qualified (Ford & Federal requirements) and readied for manufacturing in the few months that the legend has it being done in.

  +1 Chris . A perfect example is the "A" intake has a "change level" cast onto #1 runner and a date of 6-17-67 yet the 135 cars came with PI intakes because the "production iron" intakes weren't approved for production in Dec '67. Sure the 427SOHC was touted as a 90 day wonder but it was funded ( the important factor) for the "race group" not "long lead" production engines. The Boss 302 was a similar "morph" engine and took over a year to develop ( for production) despite 50% or more of the engine being "in place" from the ill fated tunnel port fiasco.
    Tasca DID bring the "lack of performance" to a head as noted in a paper presentation given by Donald Frey to the "Ford brass" Tasca and the Hot Rod magazine article were noted in his presentation. Frey ALSO made mention that there were engines already developed that didn't fit "company ( and insurance) guidelines" in place at the time that WOULD equal or surpass the performance cars from GM and Chrysler. He was outspoken with dismay over "performance parts" ONLY given to factory supported racers and the the "average customer".
« Last Edit: August 22, 2018, 12:45:55 pm by 161854 »
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Offline geraldt52

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Re: Who created the first 428 Cobra Jet?
« Reply #5 on: August 23, 2018, 04:40:18 pm »
... He was outspoken with dismay over "performance parts" ONLY given to factory supported racers and the the "average customer".

Just to make your point clear, 161854, I'm sure you meant to say: "...and not the 'average customer'."

Offline 161854

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Re: Who created the first 428 Cobra Jet?
« Reply #6 on: August 23, 2018, 06:02:40 pm »
 YES and thanks for correcting me! It shows me somebody reads my posts.
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Offline Dggilbert

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Re: Who created the first 428 Cobra Jet?
« Reply #7 on: August 29, 2018, 06:19:40 pm »
I had a chance to hang out with my dad and Bill Barr, it was like a high school reunion where they hadn't seen each other since high school. The only difference is though my dad calls Bill one of his mentors and they spent hundreds of hours on the phone they had never met. I want able to address all the xparts some of you have theorized about as I just let my dad and Bill rehash the old days as we drove around on a golfcart Fri and let them catch up. There were two significant comments that Bill Barr made. First, after the group pick at the starting line Sat morning Bill caught the photographers attention and said take my pic with me and Bill Gilbert without this guy the CJ never would've happened. Second, later he went into more detail and said that had they not forced Fords hand with the KR8 the CJ wouldn't have happened. They had the Boss 302 and 429 and Bill's 351 Cleveland on regular build schedules and if the CJ wasn't released in 68 it wouldn't have been built at all. Wow, I was blown away but that's what he said. Now I know why Bill acknowledges Bob Sr as the father of the CJ and why it was worth building it for half the production year aka 68.5's. As many have said before Thank God for Tasca. As I said I didn't get into the details, did Bill Barr feed the build info so Tasca could provide some leverage to get Ford to build it but it happened. That's all my dad says after all these years, "Tasca made it happen" , and Bill Barr concurs. What a weekend! Hope you all enjoyed as much as I did.

Offline Dggilbert

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Re: Who created the first 428 Cobra Jet?
« Reply #8 on: March 26, 2019, 12:43:14 pm »
I know it's an old thread but thought it appropriate to add this bit of info I came across doing some research on Tasca racing history. I last week ordered the Charlie Morris book Ford Drag Team,which I read in one day, and I highly recommend. Wasnt a ton of CJ stuff but the last chapter was an interview with Bill Holbrook where Rip boasts about the wolf in sheep's clothing, 427 with 428 crank stroker, and how they beat the TASCA KR8 CJ PROTOTYPE! I'm not going out on a limb in saying Rip would know if that was true being the head of the X garage. My father has had several lengthy phone conversations with Bill Barr since the reunion and the next time they talk I'm going to try to get Bill's recollection of the timing of how everything came together. Regardless I found Rips quote confirmation of everything I've been told from my father and the Tasca's. Again if you haven't read the book and are a fan of 60's racing history order it tomorrow, well done Charlie Morris!

Offline Dggilbert

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Re: Who created the first 428 Cobra Jet?
« Reply #9 on: March 26, 2019, 12:46:36 pm »
Here's a screen shot from the interview.

Online LightWtJet

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Re: Who created the first 428 Cobra Jet?
« Reply #10 on: March 28, 2019, 08:37:11 pm »
Dave's story of a 427 with a 428 crank is true. I believe it had 2 4bbl on it. A stock vehicle mechanic gave me a ride on the straightaway as I hung around that area often. It was very fast - but was never considered for production. I learned many years later how Ford used it to show the Tasca boys how the race group could put several car lengths on the KR8.  I will leave it to your imagination if Ford told them what engine they were up against.
The driver of the Ford car was Jumpy Snider who had built a 390CJ many months earlier.
=============
I just remembered- the trophy from the Al Joniec win at the Winternationals was given to the 428 Engine group as a reward. It sat there for months with no one asking for it- so it was given to Jumpy's son as he was racing at the local strip. Much later-  it was needed for a picture with the car- I do not know how that was resolved.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2019, 08:45:13 pm by LightWtJet »
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Offline Chris Teeling

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Re: Who created the first 428 Cobra Jet?
« Reply #11 on: March 28, 2019, 10:18:42 pm »
Quote
I just remembered- the trophy from the Al Joniec win at the Winternationals was given to the 428 Engine group as a reward. It sat there for months with no one asking for it- so it was given to Jumpy's son as he was racing at the local strip. Much later-  it was needed for a picture with the car- I do not know how that was resolved.

Bill Barr told me a similar story less the part about it going to Snyder's son however when I asked Al Joniec about it he said that he still has the trophy......
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Offline 161854

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Re: Who created the first 428 Cobra Jet?
« Reply #12 on: March 29, 2019, 10:08:47 am »
 Duplicates were/are available for $$$$. This "might" be the case here.
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Offline sah62

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Re: Who created the first 428 Cobra Jet?
« Reply #13 on: March 29, 2019, 06:16:37 pm »
Quote
I just remembered- the trophy from the Al Joniec win at the Winternationals was given to the 428 Engine group as a reward. It sat there for months with no one asking for it- so it was given to Jumpy's son as he was racing at the local strip. Much later-  it was needed for a picture with the car- I do not know how that was resolved.

Bill Barr told me a similar story less the part about it going to Snyder's son however when I asked Al Joniec about it he said that he still has the trophy......

Bill sent me the name plate from the original trophy. I sent it on to the owner of the car.
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Offline 69cobrajetrugae2

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Re: Who created the first 428 Cobra Jet?
« Reply #14 on: March 29, 2019, 06:32:02 pm »
Did anybody tweak the 428 PI engines in 66 to the level of a CJ?

Offline crossboss

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Re: Who created the first 428 Cobra Jet?
« Reply #15 on: March 30, 2019, 02:42:42 pm »
Did anybody tweak the 428 PI engines in 66 to the level of a CJ?



Yes, I guess you can say Shelby did for his 1967 GT-500s.
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Offline 69cobrajetrugae2

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Re: Who created the first 428 Cobra Jet?
« Reply #16 on: March 30, 2019, 03:23:09 pm »
Thanks crossboss.


Let me clarify my question.

Insofar as I know Taska was credited with using off the shelf parts to wake up the 428,  the first engine was a 390 with 428 internals and medium riser heads and 390 GT cam unless I'm mistaken.

The performance of this first engine resulted in the birth to the Cobra Jet Mustang and 150 odd cars we're available for sale 4-1-67.  Shelby must have used the same formula with the exception perhaps being the aluminum intake manifold.

I've wondered if a Police Garage mechanic was tasked to wake up the new 428 PI in 66 and was first to use the off the shelf collection of parts but was never credited in doing so in order to maintain the element of surprise over the criminal element.

I'm not suggesting that Taska's agents stole the idea but that perhaps they weren't the first to use it.

There was an article I read about how the new 428 PI in the full size Galaxy cop car had so much low end torque when the police began a high speed pursuit even though the outlaw speeder could attain a much higher top speed, the low end grunt of the 428 PI would always keep the outlaw in the policeman's view thereby ending any chances of escape.  Given the weight of the full size Galaxy my assumption is that some of the cop cars we're made into Q codes ie: Cobra Jets under the radar.

 The first Q code was a British police car in the early 60s that was secretly hopped to run down criminals and that program was very successful.

Offline geraldt52

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Re: Who created the first 428 Cobra Jet?
« Reply #17 on: March 31, 2019, 08:07:06 pm »
...Yes, I guess you can say Shelby did for his 1967 GT-500s.

The Shelby-spec 428s of '67 and '68 had nothing near the performance of the 428CJ...lousy heads, lousy exhaust manifolds, 2" exhaust, and more carburetor than they actually needed.  It's always been a puzzle to me why at least the low-riser heads weren't used by Shelby, since the engines were exclusive to Shelby anyway.  He had to know it could be done, so apparently a beancounter decision.

It was no secret, long before the 428 CJ, that 427 heads could wake up 390s and 428s.  There were even Hot Rod articles on it.  It was expensive though, and not legal for class racing, so what was the point?...much easier and cheaper to visit your friendly Pontiac dealer and drive off in a tri-power GTO, ready to go.

The performance of this first engine resulted in the birth to the Cobra Jet Mustang and 150 odd cars we're available for sale 4-1-67...
I don't know what you're referring to there.  There were no CJ cars available 4-1-67, and there were many more than 150 CJ cars available 4-1-68.

Offline crossboss

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Re: Who created the first 428 Cobra Jet?
« Reply #18 on: April 01, 2019, 10:00:13 am »
...Yes, I guess you can say Shelby did for his 1967 GT-500s.

The Shelby-spec 428s of '67 and '68 had nothing near the performance of the 428CJ...lousy heads, lousy exhaust manifolds, 2" exhaust, and more carburetor than they actually needed.  It's always been a puzzle to me why at least the low-riser heads weren't used by Shelby, since the engines were exclusive to Shelby anyway.  He had to know it could be done, so apparently a beancounter decision.

It was no secret, long before the 428 CJ, that 427 heads could wake up 390s and 428s.  There were even Hot Rod articles on it.  It was expensive though, and not legal for class racing, so what was the point?...much easier and cheaper to visit your friendly Pontiac dealer and drive off in a tri-power GTO, ready to go.

The performance of this first engine resulted in the birth to the Cobra Jet Mustang and 150 odd cars we're available for sale 4-1-67...
I don't know what you're referring to there.  There were no CJ cars available 4-1-67, and there were many more than 150 CJ cars available 4-1-68.


Shelby's '67 GT-500 428s may not had the ground pounding performance, however, he did 'hop up' the 'ol standard 428 with dual quads, and engine dress up goodies. Btw, I'm sure it was quicker than a 'standard' 390 car. Also, I'm unaware of any GTOs that had Tri-Powers in 1967. All were equipped with the 'new' 400 cid 4V and QJ carb. I believe you are referring to the '66 and earlier cars. That said, there were many other cars in 1967 that would trounce a GTO, several cars like the Mopars come to mind.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2019, 10:21:27 am by crossboss »
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Offline geraldt52

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Re: Who created the first 428 Cobra Jet?
« Reply #19 on: April 01, 2019, 12:14:47 pm »
Shelby's '67 GT-500 428s may not had the ground pounding performance, however, he did 'hop up' the 'ol standard 428 with dual quads, and engine dress up goodies. Btw, I'm sure it was quicker than a 'standard' 390 car. Also, I'm unaware of any GTOs that had Tri-Powers in 1967. All were equipped with the 'new' 400 cid 4V and QJ carb. I believe you are referring to the '66 and earlier cars. That said, there were many other cars in 1967 that would trounce a GTO, several cars like the Mopars come to mind.

The '67 and '68 GT500s were definitely better than the 390 cars...about what you'd expect from 40 cubic inches.  I would say the non-CJ GT500s are about midway between the 390 cars and the CJ cars in terms of performance.  It's really a terrible shame that Shelby didn't use 427 heads and better exhaust on the first GT500s...the history of the era would have been quite a bit different.

You're right, the tri-power for the GTO was discontinued when they went to the 400 in '67...I was just using the GTO generically, to illustrate that there were far better, cheaper  choices available back then than starting with a weak 390/428 Ford and building your own, which would end up not being legal for class competition.  When Ford didn't even really have a muscle car, your local Pontiac dealer probably had a ram-air tri-power GTO with a Hurst shifter and 4.33 posi rear sitting on the showroom floor.  Even when the Fairlanes and Cyclones hit the market they were almost certainly 3.00s or 3.23s, open rear, or at best Equa-Lok.

GTOs tend to get a bad rap because there were so many of them, and obviously many, probably most, of them were mediocre.  A base engine GTO with 3.08s was no better than a 390GT Fairlane or Cyclone.  The best GTOs were always right there with the best of anyone's...the ram-air tri-powers, and the RA IIs, RA IIIs, and RA IVs.  Chrysler made a smart move then they entered the muscle car battle, their 440s having a huge displacement advantage over GM's 400s and Ford's 390s.  Had they gone with 383s the best GM stuff would have eaten them alive.

Offline sportyworty

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Re: Who created the first 428 Cobra Jet?
« Reply #20 on: April 01, 2019, 03:01:48 pm »
Ken the 66 PI solid unfortunately used the small valve heads common to 360/390. Perhaps reconfigured with 427 L/R (CJ spec) heads combined with the Aluminum C6 PI single 4 and a Holley and it would have been better. The diagonal head exhaust pattern would have allowed them to use the U or R heads in order to increase the exhaust to 390 GT style but again back to small valve heads. I agree with you that there are combos that they had to have played with since on hand.
The 67 GT 500 and 68 500 pre KR have the same small valve heads C7AE and C8AE respectively. Unfortunately the 427 Low Riser Heads did not have enough of a pad to machine a diagonal pattern in order to bolt up the somewhat better 390 GT exhaust. There was a real need to redesign that 427 head and use the bigger valves by 1967. The W/J and N heads were the answer. The earliest J head I have seen is early August 1967
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Offline 161854

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Re: Who created the first 428 Cobra Jet?
« Reply #21 on: April 02, 2019, 10:50:00 am »
    Kerry is spot on as usual. What few understand is how Ford's system worked. The fact that the low riser heads didn't have the diagonal bolt pattern on the exhaust and the fact that no "vertical' pattern Mustang compatible manifolds were available was a deal killer for the heads. While it is claimed that Tasca used 427 Fairlane manifolds , this was NOT a drop in conversion , something that would be necessary on an assembly line. I am sure there was some hammer manipulation done to the shock towers on the '67KR8. At Ford when parts don't exist , it requires a proposal which starts the red tape process. People think that if a part was needed , it was made , but that is not the case.  Cost factoring was imposed on EVERY part added to a car including the engineering costs to develop it.  That is the reason the 427CJ ( the initial intent engine) as it was called on Ford paperwork , never happened in the Mustang ( plus the company's fear that the insurance companies wouldn't insure a 427 Mustang)and why it was phased out on the GTE Cougar. It simply made the car lose money when sold. Cougars were more expensive that Mustangs and much of the cost increase was absorbed by that. Slow sales added to the 427 engine being dropped. No doubt it would have been a hit in the Mustang

    Ken ,
   Medium riser heads ( with their larger valves and different valve locations) require a 428's smaller bore to be notched for valve clearance , something Ford was not willing to do that extra work for a "production" engine. Plus the MR head has the same bolt pattern issue as the LR
head.

    Randy
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Offline Dggilbert

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Re: Who created the first 428 Cobra Jet?
« Reply #22 on: May 02, 2019, 02:37:36 pm »
Have a few subjects to address , first from a technical historical angle, not mine my fathers. He said the 427 heads would bolt up to the 390 but the bore being too small the valves would hit the block. That's why Bill Barr recommended the 428 PI block because, though he fly cut the pistons, the 428 bore size worked. 2nd the Fairlane exhaust manifolds were a mistake passed on over the years that was made in the Hot Rod article, tuned headers from Jardine just like went on Street Bertha, Ben Coles car,pictured  in the SS&DI article "Tasca's 11 second Cobra Jet". M father met with some resistance from both Ford, who thought there was no advantage, and the Bopper but because they weren't being charged by Jardine the Bopper said. Bill Barr list in the comparison  chart describes the KR8 having headers.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2019, 04:32:42 pm by Dggilbert »

Offline Dggilbert

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Re: Who created the first 428 Cobra Jet?
« Reply #23 on: May 02, 2019, 04:57:48 pm »
As far as timing goes, the Bopper got one of the first 67 GT coupes in mid 66 and that's when my dad and Bill Barr began the back and forth and decided the 428 PI would be a candidate for the heads my father wanted to use. Interesting note and a possible way to determine when the KR8 build was not only  known to guys at Ford but also to Shelby. Bill Barr says there was a back and forth between Tasca and Shelby that led to Shelby using the 428 PI in the GT500, that quote is here on the registry home page under Bill Barr's History of the Cobra Jet. By working back the time it took to when Shelby decided on the 428PI might just line up about when the CJ build started testing and development.

Offline 161854

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Re: Who created the first 428 Cobra Jet?
« Reply #24 on: May 02, 2019, 05:46:05 pm »
  Dave ,
      THANK YOU for clearing up the information regarding the Fairlane manifolds versus headers deal. I knew from personal experience that the Fairlane manifolds are REALLY difficult to make work on a Mustang. Same as the MR head on a 390. Besides there is a SIXTEEN CC difference in combustion chamber volume that LOSES a couple of points in compression on a 390 and about a point and a half on a 428 when using them on a stock short block. "Production " 427's had to use a dome piston to get compression with a MR head. The KR8/CJ was NOT intended to be a 7,000 rpm engine and the smaller valve LR heads cleared the 428 bores because of the smaller valves and lack of "spread" between the valves. The smaller chamber LR head also worked with the existing dished 428 pistons to give a realistic compression ratio. The late Bill Holbrook called the CJ "the engine that should have been built from day one". ( meaning in '66 when the 428 was first released) Company policy and fear of insurance companies not insuring a 428 Mustang at that time was more important than sales. The "Donald Frey letter" , and the Tasca KR8 project gave Ford execs a dose of reality.
   Randy
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Offline Dggilbert

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Re: Who created the first 428 Cobra Jet?
« Reply #25 on: May 04, 2019, 10:37:22 am »
Another revelation from my dad with regards to the car they called "Street Bertha". In the SS&DI article Tasca's 11 sec CJ, its mentioned the car would go 7000 rpm and I've seen posts doubting that fact. While my dad was explaining to me about the 390 bore size and the 427 heads he swung right into telling me how he opened up the CJ exhaust valve to 1.73"? so he could use 427 sodium filled lightweight valves. Between that and spending, on and off, a couple of months "massaging" the heads that car was able to go 7000 rpm. He did  mention there was some grinding on the block necessary for the 427 exhaust valve clearance. Sure hope  get you and my father squared off for  chat at the Boss 50th Randy.

Offline Dggilbert

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Re: Who created the first 428 Cobra Jet?
« Reply #26 on: May 06, 2019, 12:02:28 pm »
Question for Randy. Your Ford Engineer friend Bob(anonymous) said in your thread in Aug 12 2012 "Finally a few minutes with a Ford CJ engineer" in point #2 says Tasca was 100% responsible for the CJ. Have you or could you get his response to the Don Frey letter in response to the "Hot Rod" article? Every time I read that letter I can't help but wonder what was going on at Ford when in the body of that letter it refers to a 427 CJ and that the 428 couldn't be done, yet the 428 CJ release memo was only a month away, very confusing. Still waiting for an "Insider" to explain this contradiction. Bill Barr states here in the registry that all testing and certification was  done between Jan 67 -Aug 67. I'll have to have my dad  Bill Barr if there was simultaneous testing being done on both a potential 427 and 428 Cobra Jet.

Offline 161854

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Re: Who created the first 428 Cobra Jet?
« Reply #27 on: May 06, 2019, 06:25:08 pm »
   Dave,
      The 427CJ was "planned" and it is "my opinion" the manufacturing costs stopped it from happening. It is also "my opinion" that the 427GTE Cougar engines were what was going to be the 427CJ. "I" believe that the 427s were used on the Cougars because it was targeted toward a higher paying client. Shelby literature and press releases all mentioned the 390 HP 427 offering. Tasca's KR8 was a FAR more economical way to do the same thing. I believe Bill Barr's timeline includes "all" Cobra Jet engine development time including the 390HP 427 hydraulic lifter engine.
    "My opinions"
  Randy
68 1/2 CJ FB San Jose white/blue "C" stripe Foulger Ford
 66 GT350 Hertz SFM 6S 477 white/ blue side stripes 1  of 18
3 magazine covers- Car Craft July '77,  Modified Mustangs Feb '11 , and June '14 Mustang Monthly
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Offline Dggilbert

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Re: Who created the first 428 Cobra Jet?
« Reply #28 on: May 08, 2019, 07:31:22 pm »
That seems reasonable and I'll go back and check but Roger Parlett aka. Lightwgtjet told me the car S-713-62 in the lightweight vehicle report he supplied to the registry was a 427 Cougar or Mustang and I believe was the proposed 427 CJ mule. It is listed at the end of the testing week as a 427 Developmental vehicle. In my opinion the idea of a 427 CJ as late as Nov 67 can't be viable without some evidence of a mule at that late a date. Its my opinion the S-713-62 427 powered car in the Ford tests Roger supplied results for are  a key for understanding the Frey memo on the Hot Rod article. In that testing data it's clear how much  the Tasca 428 4V, as it's listed, is clearly superior to all others tested. Curious for those advocates of another CJ creator, there are no other 428 cars only 390's and the developmental 427 car. For those who haven't looked at the Frey memo and then the light vehicle testing results Lightwtjet was kind enough to supply you really should, it's a real rare connect the dots Ford memo trail that says a lot about how close the 428 was to not being the 428CJ, we would've gone 427CJ to 429CJ. That is exactly what Bill Barr told my father and I at the CJ 50th.

Offline Dggilbert

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Re: Who created the first 428 Cobra Jet?
« Reply #29 on: May 08, 2019, 07:37:50 pm »
Here are both documents.

Offline crossboss

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Re: Who created the first 428 Cobra Jet?
« Reply #30 on: May 09, 2019, 10:51:07 am »
My worthless two cents…
Whom ever gets the 'credit' for the creation of the 428CJ, I am just glad it WAS done. Ford needed a strong street fighter to compete with GM and Chrysler. Lets face it, the 427 was an excellent race engine, yet in detuned street form (The Cougar GT-E) really was not all that fast. The 428 in other hands was a torque monster. With the improved parts (now known as the CJ) as mentioned was a real threat to the brand X cars….and a drag race winner.
<My old C.J. heap  aka  S-B Racing!
Current lifelong project: 1969 Mustang Fastback/FOX chassis, Powered by a modern Can-Am 494 (Boss 429), Kaase headed, Autolite 1425 cfm 'B' Inline carb, 6 speed, 4 wheel discs, ala Trans-Am style--Whew!

Offline 161854

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Re: Who created the first 428 Cobra Jet?
« Reply #31 on: May 09, 2019, 11:01:23 am »
   Yes it was a Cougar.  Performance of the heavier Cougar ( 390 powered in '67) obviously never matched the lighter Mustang's numbers. L/M jumped at the opportunity to get more HP at strengthen their performance image.
   The 600 cfm carburetor made wheel spin a problem on the test Cougar and the distributor curve was changed SEVERAL times during testing to try and limit wheel spin. Ford used the small carburetor to limit the power to under 400 to keep insurance companies happy. Plus the feeling was that "hot rodders" would change the carburetor anyway.
    I have some "tracking and disposition" notes on "brass tag" vehicles that note "427 Mustang" ( probably and S code with engine change) and also a '69 ( with a Ford vin noted) "448 test car"  448 refers to the 427 block with a 428 crank. The late Bill Holbrook (rip) mentioned there were several of these "test" engines around that were put in various cars for testing. He claimed one of the 448s was in the car that outran the KR8 when it was in Detroit.  Bill said the Bopper was very up front as to how fast the KR8 was before it went to Detroit and Bill was instructed to "have" a car that would beat it when it got there and some that wouldn't. Bill's passion for what he and "his boys" did was incredible and his recall was as if it was yesterday . He is missed by all who ever spoke with him.
    Randy
68 1/2 CJ FB San Jose white/blue "C" stripe Foulger Ford
 66 GT350 Hertz SFM 6S 477 white/ blue side stripes 1  of 18
3 magazine covers- Car Craft July '77,  Modified Mustangs Feb '11 , and June '14 Mustang Monthly
'78 F350 Oleynik racecar hauler

Offline RoyceP

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Re: Who created the first 428 Cobra Jet?
« Reply #32 on: June 17, 2019, 11:58:23 am »
Just noticed this thread. There is some misinformation here that keeps being repeated that needs to be pointed out. The driver side 427 Fairlane / Comet exhaust manifold will not fit in either Mustang or Cougar. It interferes with the steering box on the order of perhaps 1" in an area about 4" high. There is not any practical way to make it work, other than maybe installing a rack and pinion style steering which didn't exist in 1967. Anyone who tells you that someone installed 427 Fairlane manifolds in a Mustang or Cougar is making up the story, or repeating someone else's false memory. I tried everything I could think of to make it happen but was unsuccessful, and I am pretty clever. I considered cutting the manifold and welding in a scalloped piece of metal t clear the box, but after modeling it this would have made it so restrictive that it would have been worse than a 390GT manifold.

The passenger side 427 Fairlane / Comet manifold will fit just fine.
1910 Model T Ford Touring Red
1915 Model T Ford Touring Black
1914 Model T Ford Touring
1917 Model T Ford Torpedo Green
1968 Mercury Cougar XR-7 GT-E Green 427 W Code
1968 Mercury Cougar XR-7 428CJ R code 3.91 C6

Offline 161854

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Re: Who created the first 428 Cobra Jet?
« Reply #33 on: June 17, 2019, 02:02:08 pm »
   Thanks Royce. Back in '70 , a friend of mine had a '68 S code fast back and wanted to put a 427LR into it BUT no headers. He went to the local Ford dealer and ordered up the Fairlane manifolds at something like $38 each. We both tried for a week to get the D/S side to work. We DID cut and ( have welded) that side  finally giving up and went to headers. He was so disgusted he threw both modified pieces right in the trash . Your findings mirror what we went through.
      Randy
68 1/2 CJ FB San Jose white/blue "C" stripe Foulger Ford
 66 GT350 Hertz SFM 6S 477 white/ blue side stripes 1  of 18
3 magazine covers- Car Craft July '77,  Modified Mustangs Feb '11 , and June '14 Mustang Monthly
'78 F350 Oleynik racecar hauler