Author Topic: 355 HP...really  (Read 1869 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline 67428GT500

  • Newcomer
  • *
  • Joined: Sep 2018
  • Location: N.E. Texas
  • Posts: 7
Re: 355 HP...really
« Reply #60 on: October 07, 2018, 04:11:27 pm »
Thanks...Jim, yes I am running headers....and this is a 4 speed..so I believe I am hearing no stall issues or vacuum issue with the brakes...IF>...I did upgrade the cam. (BTW, you said 270h...what was that in reference to...)

I will check the springs...I take it I measure the installed height to spec?  Any other check...???  I an nearly out of my tech....

The Pertronics is a rebuilt one...from Jim Warino in LA...supposed to know what he was doing...could that be the issue and I need to replace?  I would prefer I fix this before I install in DEc...and then decide to pull the cam.
The dyno sheet ells the tale. Stock these engines have 10.5 to one compression. Yours has been lowered to 9:1 in order to be able to use the 91 octane fuel that was used for the dyno run. It says timing was 28 degrees, that alone would knock off 15 - 20 horsepower compared to the stock setting of 40 - ish degrees.

So you are probably losing 30 - 40 horsepower from the lowered compression / lousy gas.
Another 15 - 20 from the timing being way retarded.
Probably 10 horsepower loss due to rich jetting on the carb.

The cam might be another problem, it falls off in power really early compared to a stock cam. Maybe the cam timing is retarded for some reason? It looks to me that this engine could make better power if it were tuned and maybe a different cam installed.


If it only had 28 degrees the hp loss would be more like 75 hp maybe more .Have seen the difference at the track and its huge .

Pertronix is junk? Your opinion isn't anything but your opinion. I am running the Pertronix II. The only issue was powering it so it didn't affect the factory tach in my shelby. They are a far cry better than playing with dual points.  The reason for MOST failures is that people can't read and follow directions. 12V isn't a suggestion, it's required. Low voltage makes them act up and fail early. 15 years with a Ignitor II. Not one issue.  I don't have to set the dwell and the car starts much easier than it did with points.

As stated above: Pertronix II isn't an issue, but you cannot use them without 12V constant. I pulled mine before the tach and ran a power wire directly to the positive of the module.
Once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you will always long to return.
"If It's Not Boeing, I'm Not Going!"

Offline geraldt52

  • Fanatic!
  • *****
  • Joined: Nov 2003
  • Location: northern california
  • Posts: 2,445
Re: 355 HP...really
« Reply #61 on: October 07, 2018, 05:37:00 pm »
The valve spring specs for a stock CJ are in the service manuals.

Installed height = 1-13/16",  measured from the seat to the retainer.
Valve closed spring force...80-90# @ 1.82"
Valve open spring force...255-280# @1.32"

The cam in question has a bit more lift, so the spring forces could stand being a bit higher...but a stock CJ with stock springs will get to 6K before things really start to go to hell, so if you're in the neighborhood you should be OK.  If your springs don't have at least the forces of the stock CJ springs, then you've probably found your problem.

Any auto machine shop should have a proper spring checker and check a couple of your springs for a little bit of nothing.

Offline markharvey9077@gmail.com

  • Newcomer
  • *
  • Joined: Sep 2018
  • Posts: 42
Re: 355 HP...really
« Reply #62 on: October 11, 2018, 12:13:45 pm »
I found another copy of a dyno taken minutes after the first one...and the HP does not drop off as bad...comments?

I will have the tool to measure the springs this weekend...

Also, I called compcam and they prefer the HP on the 118/224 cam over the 230 cam...says it will have more HP...really?

This forum highly recommends the 230 cam??

Thanks

Offline geraldt52

  • Fanatic!
  • *****
  • Joined: Nov 2003
  • Location: northern california
  • Posts: 2,445
Re: 355 HP...really
« Reply #63 on: October 11, 2018, 07:50:26 pm »
I found another copy of a dyno taken minutes after the first one...and the HP does not drop off as bad...comments?

That looks a lot better than the prior run you posted, but it only highlights that something is amiss.

Looking just at 5200 rpm, the first run was 251 hp, and the second run was 311 hp...60 hp difference...for "no" reason?  Did the dyno operator have any explanation?  You still should verify your springs and installation height, but I'm now having trouble associating those two dyno results with the valves floating...seems a huge difference run to run, when I'd expect it to be more or less repeatable.  Maybe the secondaries in the carburetor are malfunctioning?

I forget now, is your engine on a stand and can't be run, or is it in the car and can be run?  If you can run it I'd still suggest you put a timing light and vacuum gage on it and see if you can see anything happening above 4K, and I'd also suggest you verify proper operation of the secondaries.

I hope this link works, and this is what a more or less stock CJ should look like:
http://www.fepower.net/Dyno%20Results/dyno_results_2.html

Did your dyno operator give you a graph?  If not, you might want to graph your results and compare to the images.  The horsepower naturally flattens out above 5K rpm, but nothing like your engine. 
« Last Edit: October 11, 2018, 07:56:18 pm by geraldt52 »

Offline markharvey9077@gmail.com

  • Newcomer
  • *
  • Joined: Sep 2018
  • Posts: 42
Re: 355 HP...really
« Reply #64 on: October 11, 2018, 09:13:13 pm »
Thanks for the comments...the engine is on a stand in the garage (2x4s), so I cannot check with a timing light...the cam is a 218/224 for low end torque...and that concerns me a little...I have had comments from both ends on good and bad...  I have attached a graph I did in excel.

I suspect the first run was without correct timing and that is the difference..I hope....and I suspect the carb is over jetted...that I have the jets and will fix once I get running.

I will check for the correct springs this weekend..but do not see the value spring issue as before...but I was expecting higher HP...and may replace the carb next year...and looking for comments if the cam and or disti is not ideal...

Offline geraldt52

  • Fanatic!
  • *****
  • Joined: Nov 2003
  • Location: northern california
  • Posts: 2,445
Re: 355 HP...really
« Reply #65 on: October 12, 2018, 12:17:27 pm »
A few comments about your last dyno sheet.

The "timing" listed at 28*, is the same as the first run, and isn't very informative, since we don't know what that refers to.  If it refers to total advance, then that is a mile off what is required.  If it refers to just the mechanical advance, then initial advance settings between 6 and 12* would give you a total advance of between 34 and 40*, which would be workable.  It's not possible to determine what's going on there from the dyno sheet.

After the listing for "bore" and "stroke", there is an entry of "9.00-1", and I don't think you ever answered the question as to whether that indicates that the compression ratio is 9:1.  If it is 9:1, and you're wondering why the horsepower is lower than you were expecting, that's your answer.  There's still some other reason why horsepower drops off a cliff at 5K though...a low compression ratio won't act like that.   

Offline markharvey9077@gmail.com

  • Newcomer
  • *
  • Joined: Sep 2018
  • Posts: 42
Re: 355 HP...really
« Reply #66 on: October 13, 2018, 08:46:17 pm »
I checked teh springs and they test at the correct springs....926-16

The oil pump is the M57 and this si the one where he used a rebuilt one first and was blowing over 100 psi...and replaced that one with a stock...thoughts if that blew out a galley plug?

I am about to pull the cam after I pull the manifold and see if he is missing a plug...thinking about a 33-230-4

Offline 69cobrajetrugae2

  • Fanatic!
  • *****
  • Joined: Jan 2014
  • Location: los angeles
  • Posts: 1,567
Re: 355 HP...really
« Reply #67 on: October 14, 2018, 01:22:48 am »
Here is a post from Holman Moody Stroppe Vette.   https://www.fordfe.com/installing-non-adjustable-rocker-arms-just-bolt-do-t91706.html

I agree with Gerald that something is amiss with the dyno reports insofar that they are 3 minutes 26 seconds apart and the result is vastly different.  Usually another dyno run is preceded by a engine inspection and tuning session. 
« Last Edit: October 14, 2018, 10:01:52 am by 69cobrajetrugae2 »

Offline geraldt52

  • Fanatic!
  • *****
  • Joined: Nov 2003
  • Location: northern california
  • Posts: 2,445
Re: 355 HP...really
« Reply #68 on: October 14, 2018, 07:44:31 pm »
Here is a post from Holman Moody Stroppe Vette.   https://www.fordfe.com/installing-non-adjustable-rocker-arms-just-bolt-do-t91706.html

Holy cow, I don't know who that Holman Moody Stroppe Vet is, but he appears to be a frustrated novelist  :D !

I think this might be a more understandable read on checking/setting lifter preload...there's also special tools, but this works:
http://www.laneautomotive.com/PumpItUp.htm


Offline 69cobrajetrugae2

  • Fanatic!
  • *****
  • Joined: Jan 2014
  • Location: los angeles
  • Posts: 1,567
Re: 355 HP...really
« Reply #69 on: October 14, 2018, 09:59:56 pm »
I learned a racing secret with respect to setting up a 428 CJ engine's valve train.  If a fellow doesn't understand all of it he would be well advised not to mess with any of it.

I'll bet that some guys make their own bleed down lifters and find out that they took off a little too much and she's bleeding bad at idle, clanking and clattering and got 10 pounds of oil pressure but she has a top end that won't quit.

Offline markharvey9077@gmail.com

  • Newcomer
  • *
  • Joined: Sep 2018
  • Posts: 42
Re: 355 HP...really
« Reply #70 on: October 15, 2018, 08:13:58 pm »
under the heading..."you just cannot make this up"....I called the dyno guy....

The fuel setting..he is not sure if his sensors are off...and does not know if he has a leak on one side...and does not look between engine to engine to compare...
He says he is not sure if the oil pressure is reading low or not....I asked him why does he have a gauge if he does not review it.
He reports the compression of 9:1 is a pressure guage during the run (that sound right)
He says the stroke was what he was told...and just entered it....it is wrong for a 428
When I asked him why he ran it twice and why the first was so bad...he says ...he thinks the throttle on this one dropped so he restarted it...go figure the drop.....but the second one is still weak.
The 28 dgreee timing he said was correct for a small block Ford...and set it that way on the balancer....I had to tell him a 428 was a large block....that just might account for the HP.

So much for paying for a dyno to diagnose an engine...all results are now suspect..I will replace the cam and take it to someone once I get it installed.

Comments?

Offline geraldt52

  • Fanatic!
  • *****
  • Joined: Nov 2003
  • Location: northern california
  • Posts: 2,445
Re: 355 HP...really
« Reply #71 on: October 16, 2018, 12:06:52 pm »

...all results are now suspect..

That would seem to be the bottom line.  The guy's "explanations" of the results seem largely unintelligible...to me at least.  Sometimes things just don't go the way we hoped they would.  Personally, I wouldn't make any decisions based on those dyno "results", including replacing the cam.  Your call, but I seriously doubt that a lot of performance is to be gained by replacing that cam with the other one you're looking at.  If it's horsepower you're after, I'd be more concerned about the compression ratio than I would about that cam.  Surely whoever assembled the engine could tell you what the intended static compression ratio was?

Since you can't run the engine, you might want to have someone set up your distributor on a machine...so you know what's there next time you start it up.  Timing can make a huge difference.

Offline markharvey9077@gmail.com

  • Newcomer
  • *
  • Joined: Sep 2018
  • Posts: 42
Re: 355 HP...really
« Reply #72 on: October 16, 2018, 01:34:32 pm »
thanks...I will get the distri reviewed....

Offline FN

  • Old Hand
  • ****
  • Joined: Feb 2011
  • Location: Australia
  • Username: frednolan
  • Posts: 562
  • Life was'nt meant to be easy !
355 HP...really
« Reply #73 on: October 16, 2018, 05:24:41 pm »
Take your engine to a shop that knows what they doing, you are wasting your time with this fellow.
There is no substitute for Horse Power !

1969 Gulfsteam Aqua 428 CJ Mach 1 Sportsroof
2015 Winter White XR6 Falcon FG X Turbo

Offline redscj

  • Fanatic!
  • *****
  • Joined: Dec 2009
  • Location: Utah
  • Posts: 3,274
Re: 355 HP...really
« Reply #74 on: October 16, 2018, 08:39:29 pm »
Take your engine to a shop that knows what they doing, you are wasting your time with this fellow.
     Ah, let me think for a minute......forget his name & number. Don't be shy telling other car guys to spend their hard earned dollars somewhere else. The market will fix him. A little bad press weighs more than a bunch of good press. I doubt that this guy has much good press to begin with.
     There is no reason to tolerate this kind of bad work from a place/guy that has advertised himself as a professional. Please move on, all he can offer you is tall tales & heartache. Sorry for the rough advice but.......well no buts.
Grant
69 Mach 1 Dearborn SCJ 4.30 4spd 6/17/69 Candy Apple Red
69 Sportsroof Metuchen SCJ 4.30 C6 5/28/69 Acapulco Blue