Author Topic: Aviation Fuel  (Read 1041 times)

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Offline Bigfoot

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Re: Aviation Fuel
« Reply #15 on: January 11, 2019, 08:26:16 pm »
What are they charging for 100 leaded?
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Offline 4284spd

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Re: Aviation Fuel
« Reply #16 on: January 11, 2019, 08:32:00 pm »
From what I have heard, there are different properties in LL for the altitude for cylinder coating reasons. That is was not the best for cylinders & rings.
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Offline 69cobrajetrugae2

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Re: Aviation Fuel
« Reply #17 on: January 11, 2019, 09:43:33 pm »
Leaded TEL 110 octane racing fuel has a reliable auto ignition temperature threshold which is the temperature that the fuel will light off without a spark.

Unleaded high octane racing fuel uses an aromatic blend of hydrocarbon species to raise the auto ignition point which is lower than TEL leaded fuel and comparatively is not reliable since it's performance degrades with age and transient evaporation.

In my opinion, using a low performing fuel and/or a lean air fuel ratio is the primary reason behind catastrophic 428 CJ engine failures.

Carburetor equipped engines under high load and heat conditions will have a few cylinders that run hotter than the others.

If auto ignition occurs in these cylinders, the fuel charge expansion process will begin early which has the same effect of over advanced ignition timing therefore the rate of the fuel burn and it's expansion occurs at the wrong time with devastating effects.


The result is that peak cylinder pressure can occur at TDC instead of at the optimum crank angle of 18 to 25 ATDC.

 The peak cylinder pressure and the associated heat  in these couple of cylinders is beyond the limits for which the engine was designed to endure, both in terms of heat dissipation and mechanical loading.


 If the assault continues within the effected cylinders,  the rate of burn and expansion pressure will increase and occur earlier.  Therefore the crankshaft and the bottom end are being twisted apart since a couple of cylinders are producing prodigious amounts of power and the others are producing power within specifications.  The mechanical effect is similar to a hydraulic lock because the useful expansion in these couple of cylinders is occurring during the compression stroke instead of the power stroke.  As a practical matter, again, the engine is twisting itself apart and catastrophic failure is eminent.


Upon teardown of the failed engine the actual cause of the failure if oftentimes missed and is falsely attributed to parts or machine work.


 Unless the quality of the fuel and/or the air fuel ratio fuel ratio is improved in the resurrected engine another catastrophic failure is to be expected.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2019, 08:27:09 pm by 69cobrajetrugae2 »

Offline Scott

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Re: Aviation Fuel
« Reply #18 on: January 11, 2019, 11:30:39 pm »
What are they charging for 100 leaded?
It was $3 something. Forgot but I'll give you an exact the next time I fill up.
Scott
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Offline RoyceP

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Re: Aviation Fuel
« Reply #19 on: January 12, 2019, 05:17:55 pm »
False


From what I have heard, there are different properties in LL for the altitude for cylinder coating reasons. That is was not the best for cylinders & rings.
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Offline RoyceP

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Re: Aviation Fuel
« Reply #20 on: January 12, 2019, 05:21:39 pm »
I bought a 53 gallon drum this past summer for $469 of Sunoco 110 Leaded Racing Gas. That's $8.84 per gallon. This included tax, it was set in the back of my pickup truck.

 They had 100 octane unleaded for about the same price. I don't know if they sell 100 octane leaded still?

What are they charging for 100 leaded?
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Offline RoyceP

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Re: Aviation Fuel
« Reply #21 on: January 12, 2019, 05:28:48 pm »
Over the years I spent as an aircraft mechanic I was given many 55 gallon drums full of AVGAS 100 LL. The airport fuel companies charge anywhere from $1 per gallon up to $2 per gallon to defuel it from an aircraft. My offer to take it for free was always met with a yes. Probably thousands of gallons of it have been burned in my vehicles over the years. Sadly I am retired and don't have than benefit any longer. There is no better fuel for a muscle car engine from my experience. Especially when it's free.

Leaded fuel is still legal for highway use. It just is not generally available because new cars cannot use it, and as a result gas stations don't carry it, and refineries only make it in small batches due to it being a boutique product. The only thing illegal is making new cars that burn leaded fuel.


   +1 with Royce. Over the years MANY people have voiced their opinions on AV gas , both pro and con. I asked a chemist for Conoco years ago about the use of av gas . His comment was virtually the same as what Royce was told and lamented that the "bad press" was put out there to discourage people from using it because of the lack of road taxes applied to it and the fact that leaded gas ( of any proportion) was not "legal" for use on public highways. He actually touted the long term "storage" benefits of the blend saying it was easier on carburetor internal parts than alcohol laced "pump" gas. He went on to say if it is safe in the air , it is sure as hell safe on the ground.
   Randy
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Offline redscj

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Re: Aviation Fuel
« Reply #22 on: January 12, 2019, 08:08:30 pm »
     And no highway taxes paid. ;D I would suggest editing that message. Pretty self incriminating IMHO.
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Offline RoyceP

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Re: Aviation Fuel
« Reply #23 on: January 13, 2019, 10:27:20 am »
It's all too old for it to be prosecuted LOL. Statute of limitations applies here.

The race gas has highway taxes paid, so it is not illegal to use in cars that were designed and built before the unleaded era.


     And no highway taxes paid. ;D I would suggest editing that message. Pretty self incriminating IMHO.
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Offline 69cobrajetrugae2

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Re: Aviation Fuel
« Reply #24 on: January 14, 2019, 06:24:14 am »
Here is a Shell Oil leaded AV gas advisory.

https://www.shell.com/business-customers/aviation/aeroshell/knowledge-centre/technical-talk/techart-18-30071600.html

My personal opinion is that information provided by an outfit that has "skin in the game" should not be considered as the gospel truth.

TEL Leaded fuel provides a safety net and nothing else comes close.  I will guarantee you that if leaded fuel is outlawed, it will still be available for government officials and the military in their piston powered engines.

We are operating 50 to 60 year old engine technology which needs the TEL.

Modern engines don't require TEL to make huge power because advances in the induction and combustion chamber systems create great turbulence which increases the rate of burn and stabilizes the burning and expansion process.

Todays engines don't need nearly as much total advance or high compression as ours do.

The only reason our engines have up to 40 degrees total advance and 11 to 1 compression is to excite the poorly mixed fuel air charge to make decent power.

Again, the problem is that when our engines are at 100 percent power on unleaded fuel one little engine tuning or fuel quality issue will cause great engine damage.

Offline 161854

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Re: Aviation Fuel
« Reply #25 on: January 14, 2019, 10:32:28 am »
      Royce ,
           I don't know if it's a California only thing but every year I have to sign a waiver with my local race gas supplier that I will not be using the fuel in a vehicle driven on public streets. The form quotes some law saying that is illegal to use leaded fuel on public highways.  I assumed it was a federal law and I could be wrong. No problem if I am wrong. Too bad you lost your "fuel dump" status. LOL My chemist friend said that AV gas had better long term storage properties than unleaded street gas and that a "sealed metal container" ( wing or steel drum) was one of the best was to keep it stored. A plastic container is the second worst only losing to an open container.

     You know it's really IRONIC that we lost lead because using it in cars was unhealthful YET airplanes can "rain" it down on us STILL and somehow it's OK for them. Sort of like transferring all of of air polluting heavy industry to China. Out of sight out of mind but horrific pollution continues. Thirty years from now I won't have a concern .
       Randy
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Offline preaction

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Re: Aviation Fuel
« Reply #26 on: January 14, 2019, 10:54:59 am »
TEL can still be purchased 1.8oz of this product raises octane 5 points in 1 gallon of 93 unleaded its not a blended fuel but fits in a pinch.
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Offline redscj

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Re: Aviation Fuel
« Reply #27 on: January 14, 2019, 12:18:07 pm »
     I've read several times that there isn't a statue of limitations on cheating on Federal income tax. I make the leap to guess that it likely applies to all taxes collected. At least on the Federal level. I've seen the results of an overly aggressive prosecutor. Even if you win it still costs a lot of money to prove you're innocent. Not a fair fight.
     Along with Kerry's comment. Be careful arguing with he who makes the rules.
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Offline 70cj428

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Re: Aviation Fuel
« Reply #28 on: January 14, 2019, 03:49:53 pm »
Quote
YET airplanes can "rain" it down on us STILL and somehow it's OK for them.

I guess it's better to have a little lead raining down on you then a lot of aluminum (whole airplanes....)  Engine trouble in a single engine airplane generally sucks, engine failure in a piston engine helicopter REALLY sucks ...   ;D

Offline 69cobrajetrugae2

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Re: Aviation Fuel
« Reply #29 on: January 17, 2019, 03:53:39 am »
Today, lead deposits from the evil leaded fuel days can't be found in the dirt along Los Angeles county roads and freeways and tunnels.  I find this odd since many of these roadways and dirt berms are original to the 1920's and 1930's.

It's not in the ocean either.

The truth is that the scavengers in leaded fuel grabbed the lead oxide and together they soared into the stratosphere and eventually fell into the ocean where bacteria ate it.

One tidy source of lead is found in the soil around a home that has had the lead based paint scrapped off in preparation for numerous coats of paint.  Where do little kids play?  By the roadway and freeways or around their home?

Today, many water municipalities and their politically inherited infrastructures still use lead pipes to supply fresh tap water.  To save money Flint decided to gift their citizens water from the Flint river. One would ASSUME that they would test the water first but when a politician is strapped for cash, well you know.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2017/09/21/flints-lead-poisoned-water-had-a-horrifyingly-large-effect-on-fetal-deaths-study-finds/?utm_term=.324dfa8e991b

Here is a 2002 report about a lead factory and I've attached two picture from said report.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2831943/

By the way there are 4000 lead factories in operation in the United States according to a 2007 EPA study which are belching millions or billions or trillions of pounds or tons of lead into our air, I can't recall the exact amount but it wasn't chicken feed.  Whatever amount of lead the report said is released into the air in 2007 I'll bet it's on the light side of the real amount.

Unfortunately I cannot access the EPA report at this time either due to the current government shutdown or some other reason.

We've all been brainwashed to believe that using leaded fuel was bad for our health so they phased it out.  But what's weird is that plumbers tasked to replace restricted and leaking galvanized pipes in millions of American homes joined the pipes with 50/50 lead tin solder which is directly exposed to the water flowing to the tap and into our soup pots.  Decades after leaded fuel was phased out 50/50 lead tin solder was still in use until the government finally phased it out and replaced it with 95/5 tin lead solder.  There is still lead in the solder but 5% is better than 50% I suppose.