Author Topic: When did the c9zz oil pan start being used ?  (Read 1516 times)

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Offline ed meyer

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When did the c9zz oil pan start being used ?
« on: February 17, 2019, 09:08:51 am »
Worked on a low mile dearborn 69 scj engine yesterday & the rear lh block corner had assembly stamp  8k11 & block heads dampner timing cover all cast dates in sept. The windage tray was the first (shorter version) B type of which i would expect however the oil pan was the c6oz type date stamped 9 something of which is sept so all date codes fall in place. So anybody documented the c9zz oil pan used before oct 11 1968?  Also this scj had sept 68 date cast  snake valve covers. This scj engine came out of a 13.000 mile auto shelby built early feb 69.  So this scj engine was assembled 4 months before it was used & i am wondering if ford built these rarer scjs in batches & they never got used as often as  more common cjs & being built both manual & auto  scjs they sat around longer in inventory before being used than the cjs did. Or did ford built the scjs in separate batches of automatics  & then manuals?
« Last Edit: February 17, 2019, 02:42:28 pm by ed meyer »

Offline ed meyer

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Re: When did the c9zz oil pan start being used ?
« Reply #1 on: February 18, 2019, 11:45:58 am »
Went back & looked at scj engine again & checked all dates block 8j4 with X in lifter valley 8j24 intake 8j26 8j20 heads 9 19 d3  c6oz type oil pan sept 68 valve covers, timing cover & dampner with 8k11   2  assembly date lh rear block with 1 3/4 in diamond freeze plugs c2ae-a oil pump with PC stamped on bottom plate. One of the push rods had a green color code on it anybody ever seen that? I am thinking ford may have id marked  an outer pushrod in a bundle of 16 for each motor.

Offline crossboss

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Re: When did the c9zz oil pan start being used ?
« Reply #2 on: February 18, 2019, 11:55:00 pm »
Worked on a low mile dearborn 69 scj engine yesterday & the rear lh block corner had assembly stamp  8k11 & block heads dampner timing cover all cast dates in sept. The windage tray was the first (shorter version) B type of which i would expect however the oil pan was the c6oz type date stamped 9 something of which is sept so all date codes fall in place. So anybody documented the c9zz oil pan used before oct 11 1968?  Also this scj had sept 68 date cast  snake valve covers. This scj engine came out of a 13.000 mile auto shelby built early feb 69.  So this scj engine was assembled 4 months before it was used & i am wondering if ford built these rarer scjs in batches & they never got used as often as  more common cjs & being built both manual & auto  scjs they sat around longer in inventory before being used than the cjs did. Or did ford built the scjs in separate batches of automatics  & then manuals?



Ed.
Possible this engine was a take out from a Boss 429 'conversion'?
<My old C.J. heap  aka  S-B Racing!
Current lifelong project: 1969 Mustang Fastback/FOX chassis, Powered by a modern Can-Am 494 (Boss 429), Kaase headed, Autolite 1425 cfm 'B' Inline carb, 6 speed, 4 wheel discs, ala Trans-Am style--Whew!

Offline ed meyer

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Re: When did the c9zz oil pan start being used ?
« Reply #3 on: February 19, 2019, 12:03:35 am »
No  its an automatic .  I went back today & checked more date codes on this 13.000 mi. auto scj engine and  c9af-n carb is 892  &  c8of-j dist 8j10 .  The scj auto flywheel has 3 3/4''  weight welded on 3 spots  with no id #s just fomoco stamp in center area.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2019, 06:57:20 pm by ed meyer »

Offline rockhouse66

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Re: When did the c9zz oil pan start being used ?
« Reply #4 on: February 19, 2019, 07:56:34 am »
Since we know that the sale of the SCJ was suspended right after the beginning of '69 production, I would guess this engine was held up pending release of the optional high ratio axles.  That would explain the gap between engine build date and car assembly date.

As I have mentioned before, I have had several CJ engines and short blocks over the years that still had a FoMoCo oil pan on them and have yet to find the C9 version anywhere, including at swap meets.  My unrestored 3/69 San Jose car didn't have one, but then I guess you can never be positive it wasn't replaced at some point.
Jim

'69 Grande CJ

Offline ed meyer

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Re: When did the c9zz oil pan start being used ?
« Reply #5 on: February 19, 2019, 08:34:12 am »
Jim a good way to tell if oil pan has been changed is to check the oil pump & see if its a aftermarket or a reman since these front heavy 428 cjs often got oil pans dented in from being bottomed out (going over RR tracks at hign speeds or whatever).  I can tell by looking at the baffle spotwelds on bottom of oil pans when still in car to tell which baffle is inside the pan  as the c6oz wont have the rear center spotwelds & side spot weld are higher & in different places on the pan vs the smaller lower c9zz baffle spot welds on sides & rear .  My 69 MPC dont say anything about a date when c9zz pan started being used as it only says 69-70 cj-scj.  I have had others say they had early 69 cjs that never had the c9zz pan so we need to document when this pan started being used . On the cj ID component section u can see the 3 rear bottom spot welds in the c9zz photos & it mentions the c9zz pan was believed to be introduced in october & wondering where they found this info? Anybody ever see the drawing on this pan as it might be dated?
« Last Edit: February 19, 2019, 08:40:01 am by ed meyer »

Offline preaction

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Re: When did the c9zz oil pan start being used ?
« Reply #6 on: February 20, 2019, 09:37:29 am »
No dates of use listed as change level 8.
68.5 Mustang black 4sp 3:50    67 Cougar 6.5 Liter

Offline sah62

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Re: When did the c9zz oil pan start being used ?
« Reply #7 on: February 20, 2019, 10:20:55 am »
Jim a good way to tell if oil pan has been changed is to check the oil pump & see if its a aftermarket or a reman since these front heavy 428 cjs often got oil pans dented in from being bottomed out (going over RR tracks at hign speeds or whatever).  I can tell by looking at the baffle spotwelds on bottom of oil pans when still in car to tell which baffle is inside the pan  as the c6oz wont have the rear center spotwelds & side spot weld are higher & in different places on the pan vs the smaller lower c9zz baffle spot welds on sides & rear .  My 69 MPC dont say anything about a date when c9zz pan started being used as it only says 69-70 cj-scj.  I have had others say they had early 69 cjs that never had the c9zz pan so we need to document when this pan started being used . On the cj ID component section u can see the 3 rear bottom spot welds in the c9zz photos & it mentions the c9zz pan was believed to be introduced in october & wondering where they found this info? Anybody ever see the drawing on this pan as it might be dated?

I have a copy of the engineering drawing. It's dated September 4, 1968.
Scott Hollenbeck
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Offline ed meyer

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Re: When did the c9zz oil pan start being used ?
« Reply #8 on: February 20, 2019, 10:42:16 am »
Interesting thanks preaction & where did u get info (no dates of use listed as change level 8) ?  I would think something changed on 428 tag when this pan started being used either change level or codes with S T A B but where can u find that info? Your oct 68 L-M MPC says use c9zz-a baffle (windage tray)with c9zz a or b pan  but the service replacement pan is c9zz-d & the c9zz d pan shows up in my 1970 FORD MPC   so what is c9zz a or b  pan?   My april 69 FORD  MPC  says  only c9zz b pan & c9zz a baffle.  So has anybody seen or know what a c9zz a or b pan is ?  I would have also thought ford would have used a longer oil pan bolt when using added windage tray sandwiched between 2 gaskets but i dont think so.

Offline ed meyer

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Re: When did the c9zz oil pan start being used ?
« Reply #9 on: February 20, 2019, 11:04:30 am »
 Scott I was posting my last reply when yours came thru  so what does the oil pan drawing show or say?  I layed a windage tray on top of c6oz oil pan & it barely clears the baffle but the c9zz pan baffle is much smaller & sits down lower & makes more sense. My thinking is when ford made the windage tray front opening bigger was to help oil get down to pick up tube screen faster having the long windage tray & bigger c6oz baffle both blocking oil flow back to bottom of oil pan. So by making c9zz oil pan baffle smaller & lower helped but when did the c9zz pan start being used that is the big ?

Offline sah62

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Re: When did the c9zz oil pan start being used ?
« Reply #10 on: February 20, 2019, 11:17:36 am »
Ed, the notes say "REDRAWN WITH ADDED REV", and include a description of changes from the previous version of the drawing. These drawings never say anything about actual production introduction dates.
Scott Hollenbeck
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Offline rockhouse66

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Re: When did the c9zz oil pan start being used ?
« Reply #11 on: February 20, 2019, 11:20:25 am »
Ed - I thought the change at the front of the windage tray was related to the issue of the dipstick hitting the tray and sliding back over it where it might contact the crankshaft.  And I do think there are two different oil pan bolt lengths with and w/o windage tray.  I don't have my books here to check but I know that AMK sells two different oil pan bolt lengths depending on whether you are using the tray or not (might be listed as SCJ vs CJ by AMK - not sure).
Jim

'69 Grande CJ

Offline ed meyer

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Re: When did the c9zz oil pan start being used ?
« Reply #12 on: February 20, 2019, 02:43:46 pm »
Scott does that drawing show the shorter lower baffle?                                                                                                           Jim u may be correct as i now remember the dipstick problem as i have had cj dipstick with rub wear marks on them & bent just trying to figure this oil pan baffle out & the changes made & why book calls for a c9zz b pan. I will check the oil pan bolt lenghts next time i look at this all original scj engine we are working on.  I have had 3 nos c9zz & many c60z oil pans over the years & many used c6oz & around 5 c9zz used extra oil pans & they are very hard to find & now thanks to the cj forum educating cj owners we know the differences but back in the 80s when i found my nos c9zz oil pans people told me that they are all the same but we know better now. I have sold & used up most of my oil pans but now i wished i would have checked the date codes & compared all my c9zz pans to see if there is a difference between them as i sure would like to know the difference between a c9zz b vs c9zz d pan & when they started being installed at the engine plant when the engines were assembled & tested.   Only way we are going to figure this out is imput from 69 cj guys on which pan & when there engine was built is more important than when car was built or which plant as all CJ engines were built in dearborn werent they?

Offline sah62

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Re: When did the c9zz oil pan start being used ?
« Reply #13 on: February 20, 2019, 02:57:38 pm »
Yes, it shows the shorter baffle.
Scott Hollenbeck
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Offline ed meyer

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Re: When did the c9zz oil pan start being used ?
« Reply #14 on: February 20, 2019, 03:44:52 pm »
 Scott can u post a photo of the drawing so i can study the baffle design as i have some original c9zz pans here & want to see if there is any difference in them compared to the sept 68 drawing? thanks